Why Keeping it Real with Money is Good for Your Church

This week on Tithe.ly TV, Dean Sweetman and Frank Barry are joined by both Chris Brown and Mark Clark. Chris is a senior pastor of North Coast Church and Mark serves as the lead pastor of Village Church in Canada.

October 24, 2018
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Show notes

This week on Tithe.ly TV, Dean Sweetman and Frank Barry are joined by both Chris Brown and Mark Clark. Chris is a senior pastor of North Coast Church and Mark serves as the lead pastor of Village Church in Canada.

During their conversation, they talk about:

  • Why church leaders must keep it real when talking about money
  • How to onboard first-time givers
  • Pastoring people and their money
  • Why generosity is a lifestyle—not a program
  • Casting a Kingdom vision for your church
  • Leading your people to build an eternal portfolio
  • Increasing generosity by keeping things simple

Resources

Here are links and the resources mentioned during the show or in the comments:

Video Transcript

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Dean Sweetman:  Hey, Dean Sweetman here. Welcome to Tithe.ly TV. Got Frank Barry, Chris Brown, Mark Clark from Village Church in Canada. We're in Sticky Teams.

Frank Barry:    I can't even participate in that.

Dean Sweetman:  This is going to be quite possibly the most crazy show we've ever done, because this man is as deep as you can ever go.

Mark Clark:     I don't even have a mic. You have a mic, you have a mic, you have a mic.

Dean Sweetman:  No, no, your voice is so loud you don't need a mic.

Chris Brown:    You don't know what you're going to say.

Frank Barry:    Hello, guys. I'd like to talk to you.

Chris Brown:    Testing, one, two.

Frank Barry:    We already told you, Chris. You don't have to do that.

Chris Brown:    We actually don't know what this show is about.

Dean Sweetman:  We have no clue.

Frank Barry:    It's a show about nothing.

Chris Brown:    It's chaos.

Dean Sweetman:  It's going to be some ... We're going to get back to generosity and giving and blessing somehow. We're going to get there.

Male:       You want to use my mic?

Chris Brown:    Yeah [crosstalk 00:01:14]. This is my friend, Mark Clark. When he found out I was coming to do this [crosstalk 00:01:19].

Dean Sweetman:  He just butted in.

Chris Brown:    That's a true story.

Dean Sweetman:  Oh my gosh. Okay.

Mark Clark:     I'm going to start blushing.

Dean Sweetman:  Okay, so serious-

Male:       Okay, here we go.

Dean Sweetman:  Let's focus.

Male:       Okay, be serious.

Dean Sweetman:  Okay. Frank, hey, mate.

Male:       What?

Frank Barry:    It's good to be here.

Dean Sweetman:  It's good to be here.

Frank Barry:    We're grateful for all the folks on Facebook joining us today. Thanks, guys, for joining us. This is awesome.

Chris Brown:    Hey, of course.

Frank Barry:    We sent you the five of your names. I'd say it personally.

Dean Sweetman:  5,000.

Frank Barry:    It's only three.

Chris Brown:    It's a beautiful Wednesday morning.

Frank Barry:    It's our parents that are on right now. Yeah.

Chris Brown:    I heard.

Frank Barry:    You need to tell ... We're at Sticky Teams.

Mark Clark:     We're at Sticky Teams Conference.

Frank Barry:    Give us the two-minute Sticky Teams-

Chris Brown:    Oh, Sticky Teams. It's kind of an old niche conference that ... It's been going on for about 12 years now here at North Coast Church down in North County, San Diego, where we keep it to about 850 leaders, and we try to get leaders to bring their teams, so don't come on your own, and we really talk about how to have healthy teams. It's the same type breakout. We have some main sessions, and then we have breakout sessions, but everything is built on health and we really do it in a way where ... Come to this conference expecting for things to be real, and we ask every one of our presenters, don't give us your A plus speech, don't give us your road talk, pull back the curtain and let us know what's really going on.

Dean Sweetman:  Love it.

Chris Brown:    It has been awesome.

Frank Barry:    Amazing. Yeah, I was in part of Judd's speech or presentation.

Chris Brown:    Yeah, unbelievable.

Frank Barry:    He was super real. Just speaking to your point like it's ...

Chris Brown:    Down.

Frank Barry:    [crosstalk 00:02:37], under the covers, here's everything that's going on.

Dean Sweetman:  Yeah. There's so much of the other stuff, right? You're out there [crosstalk 00:02:43].

Frank Barry:    You get the polish, you get the canned stuff.

Chris Brown:    I like under the covers.

Male:       [inaudible 00:02:47].

Male:       Talks, talks are going down. Talks are going under the covers. That's what we should [crosstalk 00:02:50]>

Frank Barry:    Hey, for all of you that support Tithe.ly, Tithe.ly did not want him in this shoot. He came with me.

Dean Sweetman:  He's a Canadian.

Frank Barry:    I will take full responsibility. I'm stuck between a Canadian and [crosstalk 00:03:01] numbers. I don't understand either [crosstalk 00:03:02].

Dean Sweetman:  Listen. Talk about getting real.

Frank Barry:    Yeah.

Dean Sweetman:  What we do on this show is we help pastors get real around giving, around generosity. A lot of pastors are afraid to talk about money. You guys have raised millions, tens of millions of dollars over the years of this church.

Frank Barry:    Just for your salary alone.

Dean Sweetman:  Right. Just tell us, give us some great tips on generosity, building a generous church.

Chris Brown:    Let me talk to you about just breaking that fear barrier as a pastor.

Dean Sweetman:  Love it.

Chris Brown:    Now what Mark does in raising money is just ... is amazing. I got to take notes from this guy, but just speaking into the leader that goes, "Oh, I hate talking about money." You've got to understand the part this plays in the body of Christ. You have someone that comes to your church, and one of your staff goes, "Hey, that guy that's here. He's came for the last four weeks. He played keyboards for ..." and then you fill in one of your favorite band names of all times or something like that.

Male:       INXS.

Chris Brown:    INXS, of course. He's been coming. He's been asking about you and like, "Oh, my gosh." You keep an eye on him. Now he's come for the last three months. He's plugging in, the family's plugging in. My bet is you have no problem telling somebody from the worship staff, "Hey, you know we got the keyboard player from INXS, one of the-"

Dean Sweetman:  Go get him.

Chris Brown:    80s band of all. Someone should go talk to this guy, find out what's going on. You have someone that comes in, and they have incredible gifts of teaching or of leadership or something like that. My bet is you're going to find out how to use them.

Frank Barry:    It's so good.

Chris Brown:    Why when it comes to finances, we're the ones, by the way, that put up this, "[inaudible 00:04:23] I can't approach" or "I can't talk about it." If there are some really high, generous givers in your church, they are used to being approached by every other charitable organization.

Frank Barry:    That's a good point.

Dean Sweetman:  Everybody approaches all of us. Everybody's selling to us all the time, and as ministers we get so shy about going bold in probably one of the most key areas that sets people free, and that's getting people to be generous. What about you, Mark, what's ...?

Mark Clark:     Yeah, I think one of the things that we've tried to do is ... I've looked at my church over the last bunch of years and gone, "Look, I know what you give. It's alright." They're like, "Oh Canadians, you're not supposed to know anything" and it's like [inaudible 00:04:56]. I'll get on stage, I'll be like, "So when I'm talking to you in the foyer," or in the auditorium, whatever you guys call it, "I actually know what your ... What that means is I can't shepherd you unless I'm shepherding your money. Jesus says where your heart is is your treasure's going to be. Don't come to me with a marriage problem, a kid problem, some addiction, and some issue you want me to shepherd without me saying, 'Where's your money going?' Because I can't shepherd your spiritual life without actually knowing where your money is, because the two are tied together." One of the things that my church has come to know is that I'm going to know what you do, I'm going to know what you give, because I can't shepherd you otherwise.

Frank Barry:    You share that from stage?

Mark Clark:     Yeah.

Frank Barry:    Wow.

Dean Sweetman:  That's in your place.

Mark Clark:     In Canada, you're really [crosstalk 00:05:35].

Chris Brown:    Guys, that's [crosstalk 00:05:36].

Dean Sweetman:  I was going to say the Canadians are chill, eh, right?

Frank Barry:    I don't think that's just Canada. I think you would talk to ... I don't know ... nine pastors out of ten, and they wouldn't say something [crosstalk 00:05:45]

Chris Brown:    When we talk to pastors, we get that pushback all the time. "Well, my church and my board doesn't want me to know that." I'm, "Why?"

Frank Barry:    Why?

Chris Brown:    "Well, for fear maybe I'll treat someone differently." You can talk about someone's addiction. You can talk about their sexuality, but you can't talk about their money? If you have a pastor and you can't trust him to handle someone once he knows their finances, he shouldn't be a pastor.

Frank Barry:    No, that's good.

Chris Brown:    I don't know how we got into this stigma, because it is. The other thing, I play the trump card when the guys goes, "Well, pastor, if we're going to have more messages like that, I'll just take my wife and my ... I'll just take my family and my tithing, and we'll leave." To which I merely go up and go, "Oh, hey, I got your email. I'm trying to respond to you. First of all, here's what I said. I think you must have misunderstood. Thirdly, I think I must have misunderstood you, because I checked. I don't have any giving from you for the last three years."

Dean Sweetman:  Isn't that always the case? These vocal guys and you go ... Over the years, it's like these single mothers are giving and so are these families. You wouldn't know it, but they're giving like crazy. Some of the big talkers, man ...

Chris Brown:    It's big hat, no cattle is an old Texas saying from the nation that I come from. Yeah, the whole people they talk and I go, "Look, we look at that. We know. Don't bring that."

Dean Sweetman:  Giving's a journey. Generosity's ... You come in. You've been a Christian a year or two. Getting people ... How do you grant people in? You just straight out just start teaching the Bible or do you have anything specific that you do to ramp people into generosity?

Chris Brown:    For us and whatever he says trumps me because he's better than us. For us, we never do a giving series. We never do giving at the beginning of the year.

Dean Sweetman:  Interesting.

Chris Brown:    The most important things that are discipleship for us, you do not do a series on it, because once you do a series, you're done with it. You can't bring it up again.

Frank Barry:    Just a start and an end.

Dean Sweetman:  Yeah, so you want it all the time.

Chris Brown:    Well, we do a giving series in January but no, this isn't a series. This is lifestyle.

Dean Sweetman:  Why I love it.

Chris Brown:    The things that are most important to us, we never do a series on. They are dripped into obedience. Every message is going to come down to. We hit this passage today. What's that look like when it comes to your spouse, your workplace, and your wallet? It's just a part of obedience.

Dean Sweetman:  Unbelievable.

Mark Clark:     We do a six-week series on it.

Dean Sweetman:  At the beginning of the year.

Mark Clark:     At the beginning of the year. We get everybody on track in January.

Frank Barry:    He puts everyone's name up on the PowerPoint, how much they gave. He goes, "Look. I know it, you know it."

Mark Clark:     We only have 14 people at our church.

Frank Barry:    That number's dwindling by the way.

Mark Clark:     No. We've never done a series on it. I agree. You just have to drip it in as you go, and it's part of discipleship. I think one of the things we try to do is once you have the whole principle of the Gospel, Jesus ... This is what Paul argues [inaudible 00:08:17] is Jesus was rich. He gave up everything and became poor so that you might be spiritually rich. Ergo, and that's what Paul tries to ... That's what he says when he's trying to get people to be generous. He doesn't say, "Aw, be generous." He goes, "Jesus had everything, and he gave it all up, and became poor for you, so you better do the same for [crosstalk 00:08:32]."

Dean Sweetman:  He was a role model.

Mark Clark:     What we've seen is that kind of generosity just explode. I've had guys sit across the table from me and go, "Hey, I'm going to give 500 grand for the golf tournament." I actually asked a guy-

Dean Sweetman:  You do this golf tournament.

Mark Clark:     I do this golf tournament.

Dean Sweetman:  No, no. Now, I've done golf tournaments that raise like ten grand. You're doing a golf tournament that raises ...

Mark Clark:     A million dollars [crosstalk 00:08:54].

Dean Sweetman:  How do you do that?

Mark Clark:     We did it last year.

Chris Brown:    But in a day.

Dean Sweetman:  In one day?

Mark Clark:     Right. [inaudible 00:08:57]. Last year we did it for ... to build a hospital in Iraq for women and kids [inaudible 00:09:04]. This year we're doing a thing for Uganda.

Dean Sweetman:  Wow.

Chris Brown:    It's a skins game between two [crosstalk 00:09:09].

Dean Sweetman:  Two guys.

Male:       Yeah.

Dean Sweetman:  It's Phil and Tiger.

Mark Clark:     Yeah [crosstalk 00:09:13]. I was sitting across from a guy and just started going. I was just like, "Look, here's what the vision is, and here's what we want to try to do. Could you give half of it?" He goes, "You want me to give 500 right now?" I'm like, "Before we even get started." He goes, "Deal."

Frank Barry:    Done.

Mark Clark:     Right there at the lunch table.

Frank Barry:    Wow. That is so cool.

Mark Clark:     That kind of generosity's been very cool and we've just seen ... We're doing a ten million dollar building project right now. We got the church to give 10 million in six months, and that was everybody. We put up the pyramid. We said, "Some of you are going to give a million bucks. Some of you are going to give 1500. We all need to be part of it. We don't want this to be six people in a back room to buy a piece of land." The whole church participated, gave to it, and now we're in a 25 million dollar building project and same thing. We're not going to have three people do it. It's all of us together are going to figure it out. It's so good.

Dean Sweetman:  How much is the vision, like creating that vision? I know you guys do this really great. How big a deal is the vision? What's the thing?

Mark Clark:     Well, that's [crosstalk 00:10:04]

Frank Barry:    How do you do it? How do you lead into it, get that vision out there, and get people bought in?

Mark Clark:     We just get on the stage talking about the vision. This is why we're building a building. We're not a building a building so it can sit empty and we can have it. We have multiple sites in different provinces so the point of it is a media center, it's a conference center, it's being able to train up leaders, church planters, send them out. We're only building a ... Something that's similar to what we're in now that we rent, so we're not building a massive monstrosity that can fit 9,000 people that's going to be empty in 10 years because we had our 15 minutes. It's something that is able to be used as a headquarters out of which to do what we want to do.

Male:       You guys [crosstalk 00:10:41]

Male:       That's what I say.

Male:       [crosstalk 00:10:42] vision.

Chris Brown:    Yeah. Never talk about the what. I always do the why. In fact, I find myself almost being apologetic about the what. "Guys, I don't want to build bigger buildings. I don't want to buy land. I mean I think this is ridiculous."

Dean Sweetman:  A pain in the butt, yeah.

Chris Brown:    Yeah. "We're not about that, but let me tell you what I see across North County." Then make sure you have your act together in ... We did a thing for where we are in North County, San Diego, and we just did a ... How many Bible-believing churches are in North County? Really Evangelical churches, and I don't care what denomination, what they adhere to. Just do they do the Bible? Then we had just a bank of people, volunteers, that just spent two days calling them saying, "How many services do you have and how much does your auditorium seat?" Then we just did the math. We did ... Took the population of North County. If everybody in North County wanted to go to church, we would be 446,000 seats short of being able to fill it.

Dean Sweetman:  Short. What a great way to see it!

Chris Brown:    "Guys, so listen. I don't want buildings, I don't want land. I don't want a bigger building. I don't want to look like a mega church. We're doing this for the 446,000. Now let's boil down. Let me remind you who they are. These are your friends, your neighbors, your aunts, your uncles. These are the people on the Little League team, the parents that you sit by," and our whole thing was about the 446,000. It wasn't about buildings. It wasn't about [crosstalk 00:11:58].

Dean Sweetman:  I love that. What a great exercise. Find out how many local churches, how many services, and find the deficit. Man, that will preach all day long.

Frank Barry:    You guys are planting another campus or just did plant another campus?

Chris Brown:    We just did, and we're doing another one. It's crazy.

Frank Barry:    Tell us where they're at.

Chris Brown:    In North County we've got this site here on the Vista campus. We've got Carlsbad, Fallbrook. We are out at San Marcus Escondido. We just planted Ramona, and now we're starting South 15 at Rancho Bernardo High School.

Dean Sweetman:  San Diego and Vancouver, Canada, are not cheap cities. I hear this. Somebody will be, "Well-"

Frank Barry:    Oh, we're cheap compared to them. I thought we were expensive until I went to [crosstalk 00:12:35].

Dean Sweetman:  Apostles will say, "Dean, you don't know how expensive it is here." It's like if you go in with a defeatist attitude thinking, "Well, my city's expensive, and you don't know how hard it is." There's 10 excuses why you shouldn't go bold, preach a great vision, present something great, but I think it starts with a revelation from the senior guy. You got to come in really believing this. How did you get started on this whole revelation of giving? Was there something that snapped in you?

Chris Brown:    It has to start with what's been done in your heart. Do not expect your people to be generous if you're not generous, and I don't care how many messages. I don't care what series. I don't care how gifted you are. If you are not leading a generous life, do not expect them to be generous. Then be the first to the wall. The first to the wall are always the blooDean Sweetman:  Hey, Dean Sweetman here. Welcome to Tithe.ly TV. Got Frank Barry, Chris Brown, Mark Clark from Village Church in Canada. We're in Sticky Teams.

Frank Barry:    I can't even participate in that.

Dean Sweetman:  This is going to be quite possibly the most crazy show we've ever done, because this man is as deep as you can ever go.

Mark Clark:     I don't even have a mic. You have a mic, you have a mic, you have a mic.

Dean Sweetman:  No, no, your voice is so loud you don't need a mic.

Chris Brown:    You don't know what you're going to say.

Frank Barry:    Hello, guys. I'd like to talk to you.

Chris Brown:    Testing, one, two.

Frank Barry:    We already told you, Chris. You don't have to do that.

Chris Brown:    We actually don't know what this show is about.

Dean Sweetman:  We have no clue.

Frank Barry:    It's a show about nothing.

Chris Brown:    It's chaos.

Dean Sweetman:  It's going to be some ... We're going to get back to generosity and giving and blessing somehow. We're going to get there.

Male:       You want to use my mic?

Chris Brown:    Yeah [crosstalk 00:01:14]. This is my friend, Mark Clark. When he found out I was coming to do this [crosstalk 00:01:19].

Dean Sweetman:  He just butted in.

Chris Brown:    That's a true story.

Dean Sweetman:  Oh my gosh. Okay.

Mark Clark:     I'm going to start blushing.

Dean Sweetman:  Okay, so serious-

Male:       Okay, here we go.

Dean Sweetman:  Let's focus.

Male:       Okay, be serious.

Dean Sweetman:  Okay. Frank, hey, mate.

Male:       What?

Frank Barry:    It's good to be here.

Dean Sweetman:  It's good to be here.

Frank Barry:    We're grateful for all the folks on Facebook joining us today. Thanks, guys, for joining us. This is awesome.

Chris Brown:    Hey, of course.

Frank Barry:    We sent you the five of your names. I'd say it personally.

Dean Sweetman:  5,000.

Frank Barry:    It's only three.

Chris Brown:    It's a beautiful Wednesday morning.

Frank Barry:    It's our parents that are on right now. Yeah.

Chris Brown:    I heard.

Frank Barry:    You need to tell ... We're at Sticky Teams.

Mark Clark:     We're at Sticky Teams Conference.

Frank Barry:    Give us the two-minute Sticky Teams-

Chris Brown:    Oh, Sticky Teams. It's kind of an old niche conference that ... It's been going on for about 12 years now here at North Coast Church down in North County, San Diego, where we keep it to about 850 leaders, and we try to get leaders to bring their teams, so don't come on your own, and we really talk about how to have healthy teams. It's the same type breakout. We have some main sessions, and then we have breakout sessions, but everything is built on health and we really do it in a way where ... Come to this conference expecting for things to be real, and we ask every one of our presenters, don't give us your A plus speech, don't give us your road talk, pull back the curtain and let us know what's really going on.

Dean Sweetman:  Love it.

Chris Brown:    It has been awesome.

Frank Barry:    Amazing. Yeah, I was in part of Judd's speech or presentation.

Chris Brown:    Yeah, unbelievable.

Frank Barry:    He was super real. Just speaking to your point like it's ...

Chris Brown:    Down.

Frank Barry:    [crosstalk 00:02:37], under the covers, here's everything that's going on.

Dean Sweetman:  Yeah. There's so much of the other stuff, right? You're out there [crosstalk 00:02:43].

Frank Barry:    You get the polish, you get the canned stuff.

Chris Brown:    I like under the covers.

Male:       [inaudible 00:02:47].

Male:       Talks, talks are going down. Talks are going under the covers. That's what we should [crosstalk 00:02:50]>

Frank Barry:    Hey, for all of you that support Tithe.ly, Tithe.ly did not want him in this shoot. He came with me.

Dean Sweetman:  He's a Canadian.

Frank Barry:    I will take full responsibility. I'm stuck between a Canadian and [crosstalk 00:03:01] numbers. I don't understand either [crosstalk 00:03:02].

Dean Sweetman:  Listen. Talk about getting real.

Frank Barry:    Yeah.

Dean Sweetman:  What we do on this show is we help pastors get real around giving, around generosity. A lot of pastors are afraid to talk about money. You guys have raised millions, tens of millions of dollars over the years of this church.

Frank Barry:    Just for your salary alone.

Dean Sweetman:  Right. Just tell us, give us some great tips on generosity, building a generous church.

Chris Brown:    Let me talk to you about just breaking that fear barrier as a pastor.

Dean Sweetman:  Love it.

Chris Brown:    Now what Mark does in raising money is just ... is amazing. I got to take notes from this guy, but just speaking into the leader that goes, "Oh, I hate talking about money." You've got to understand the part this plays in the body of Christ. You have someone that comes to your church, and one of your staff goes, "Hey, that guy that's here. He's came for the last four weeks. He played keyboards for ..." and then you fill in one of your favorite band names of all times or something like that.

Male:       INXS.

Chris Brown:    INXS, of course. He's been coming. He's been asking about you and like, "Oh, my gosh." You keep an eye on him. Now he's come for the last three months. He's plugging in, the family's plugging in. My bet is you have no problem telling somebody from the worship staff, "Hey, you know we got the keyboard player from INXS, one of the-"

Dean Sweetman:  Go get him.

Chris Brown:    80s band of all. Someone should go talk to this guy, find out what's going on. You have someone that comes in, and they have incredible gifts of teaching or of leadership or something like that. My bet is you're going to find out how to use them.

Frank Barry:    It's so good.

Chris Brown:    Why when it comes to finances, we're the ones, by the way, that put up this, "[inaudible 00:04:23] I can't approach" or "I can't talk about it." If there are some really high, generous givers in your church, they are used to being approached by every other charitable organization.

Frank Barry:    That's a good point.

Dean Sweetman:  Everybody approaches all of us. Everybody's selling to us all the time, and as ministers we get so shy about going bold in probably one of the most key areas that sets people free, and that's getting people to be generous. What about you, Mark, what's ...?

Mark Clark:     Yeah, I think one of the things that we've tried to do is ... I've looked at my church over the last bunch of years and gone, "Look, I know what you give. It's alright." They're like, "Oh Canadians, you're not supposed to know anything" and it's like [inaudible 00:04:56]. I'll get on stage, I'll be like, "So when I'm talking to you in the foyer," or in the auditorium, whatever you guys call it, "I actually know what your ... What that means is I can't shepherd you unless I'm shepherding your money. Jesus says where your heart is is your treasure's going to be. Don't come to me with a marriage problem, a kid problem, some addiction, and some issue you want me to shepherd without me saying, 'Where's your money going?' Because I can't shepherd your spiritual life without actually knowing where your money is, because the two are tied together." One of the things that my church has come to know is that I'm going to know what you do, I'm going to know what you give, because I can't shepherd you otherwise.

Frank Barry:    You share that from stage?

Mark Clark:     Yeah.

Frank Barry:    Wow.

Dean Sweetman:  That's in your place.

Mark Clark:     In Canada, you're really [crosstalk 00:05:35].

Chris Brown:    Guys, that's [crosstalk 00:05:36].

Dean Sweetman:  I was going to say the Canadians are chill, eh, right?

Frank Barry:    I don't think that's just Canada. I think you would talk to ... I don't know ... nine pastors out of ten, and they wouldn't say something [crosstalk 00:05:45]

Chris Brown:    When we talk to pastors, we get that pushback all the time. "Well, my church and my board doesn't want me to know that." I'm, "Why?"

Frank Barry:    Why?

Chris Brown:    "Well, for fear maybe I'll treat someone differently." You can talk about someone's addiction. You can talk about their sexuality, but you can't talk about their money? If you have a pastor and you can't trust him to handle someone once he knows their finances, he shouldn't be a pastor.

Frank Barry:    No, that's good.

Chris Brown:    I don't know how we got into this stigma, because it is. The other thing, I play the trump card when the guys goes, "Well, pastor, if we're going to have more messages like that, I'll just take my wife and my ... I'll just take my family and my tithing, and we'll leave." To which I merely go up and go, "Oh, hey, I got your email. I'm trying to respond to you. First of all, here's what I said. I think you must have misunderstood. Thirdly, I think I must have misunderstood you, because I checked. I don't have any giving from you for the last three years."

Dean Sweetman:  Isn't that always the case? These vocal guys and you go ... Over the years, it's like these single mothers are giving and so are these families. You wouldn't know it, but they're giving like crazy. Some of the big talkers, man ...

Chris Brown:    It's big hat, no cattle is an old Texas saying from the nation that I come from. Yeah, the whole people they talk and I go, "Look, we look at that. We know. Don't bring that."

Dean Sweetman:  Giving's a journey. Generosity's ... You come in. You've been a Christian a year or two. Getting people ... How do you grant people in? You just straight out just start teaching the Bible or do you have anything specific that you do to ramp people into generosity?

Chris Brown:    For us and whatever he says trumps me because he's better than us. For us, we never do a giving series. We never do giving at the beginning of the year.

Dean Sweetman:  Interesting.

Chris Brown:    The most important things that are discipleship for us, you do not do a series on it, because once you do a series, you're done with it. You can't bring it up again.

Frank Barry:    Just a start and an end.

Dean Sweetman:  Yeah, so you want it all the time.

Chris Brown:    Well, we do a giving series in January but no, this isn't a series. This is lifestyle.

Dean Sweetman:  Why I love it.

Chris Brown:    The things that are most important to us, we never do a series on. They are dripped into obedience. Every message is going to come down to. We hit this passage today. What's that look like when it comes to your spouse, your workplace, and your wallet? It's just a part of obedience.

Dean Sweetman:  Unbelievable.

Mark Clark:     We do a six-week series on it.

Dean Sweetman:  At the beginning of the year.

Mark Clark:     At the beginning of the year. We get everybody on track in January.

Frank Barry:    He puts everyone's name up on the PowerPoint, how much they gave. He goes, "Look. I know it, you know it."

Mark Clark:     We only have 14 people at our church.

Frank Barry:    That number's dwindling by the way.

Mark Clark:     No. We've never done a series on it. I agree. You just have to drip it in as you go, and it's part of discipleship. I think one of the things we try to do is once you have the whole principle of the Gospel, Jesus ... This is what Paul argues [inaudible 00:08:17] is Jesus was rich. He gave up everything and became poor so that you might be spiritually rich. Ergo, and that's what Paul tries to ... That's what he says when he's trying to get people to be generous. He doesn't say, "Aw, be generous." He goes, "Jesus had everything, and he gave it all up, and became poor for you, so you better do the same for [crosstalk 00:08:32]."

Dean Sweetman:  He was a role model.

Mark Clark:     What we've seen is that kind of generosity just explode. I've had guys sit across the table from me and go, "Hey, I'm going to give 500 grand for the golf tournament." I actually asked a guy-

Dean Sweetman:  You do this golf tournament.

Mark Clark:     I do this golf tournament.

Dean Sweetman:  No, no. Now, I've done golf tournaments that raise like ten grand. You're doing a golf tournament that raises ...

Mark Clark:     A million dollars [crosstalk 00:08:54].

Dean Sweetman:  How do you do that?

Mark Clark:     We did it last year.

Chris Brown:    But in a day.

Dean Sweetman:  In one day?

Mark Clark:     Right. [inaudible 00:08:57]. Last year we did it for ... to build a hospital in Iraq for women and kids [inaudible 00:09:04]. This year we're doing a thing for Uganda.

Dean Sweetman:  Wow.

Chris Brown:    It's a skins game between two [crosstalk 00:09:09].

Dean Sweetman:  Two guys.

Male:       Yeah.

Dean Sweetman:  It's Phil and Tiger.

Mark Clark:     Yeah [crosstalk 00:09:13]. I was sitting across from a guy and just started going. I was just like, "Look, here's what the vision is, and here's what we want to try to do. Could you give half of it?" He goes, "You want me to give 500 right now?" I'm like, "Before we even get started." He goes, "Deal."

Frank Barry:    Done.

Mark Clark:     Right there at the lunch table.

Frank Barry:    Wow. That is so cool.

Mark Clark:     That kind of generosity's been very cool and we've just seen ... We're doing a ten million dollar building project right now. We got the church to give 10 million in six months, and that was everybody. We put up the pyramid. We said, "Some of you are going to give a million bucks. Some of you are going to give 1500. We all need to be part of it. We don't want this to be six people in a back room to buy a piece of land." The whole church participated, gave to it, and now we're in a 25 million dollar building project and same thing. We're not going to have three people do it. It's all of us together are going to figure it out. It's so good.

Dean Sweetman:  How much is the vision, like creating that vision? I know you guys do this really great. How big a deal is the vision? What's the thing?

Mark Clark:     Well, that's [crosstalk 00:10:04]

Frank Barry:    How do you do it? How do you lead into it, get that vision out there, and get people bought in?

Mark Clark:     We just get on the stage talking about the vision. This is why we're building a building. We're not a building a building so it can sit empty and we can have it. We have multiple sites in different provinces so the point of it is a media center, it's a conference center, it's being able to train up leaders, church planters, send them out. We're only building a ... Something that's similar to what we're in now that we rent, so we're not building a massive monstrosity that can fit 9,000 people that's going to be empty in 10 years because we had our 15 minutes. It's something that is able to be used as a headquarters out of which to do what we want to do.

Male:       You guys [crosstalk 00:10:41]

Male:       That's what I say.

Male:       [crosstalk 00:10:42] vision.

Chris Brown:    Yeah. Never talk about the what. I always do the why. In fact, I find myself almost being apologetic about the what. "Guys, I don't want to build bigger buildings. I don't want to buy land. I mean I think this is ridiculous."

Dean Sweetman:  A pain in the butt, yeah.

Chris Brown:    Yeah. "We're not about that, but let me tell you what I see across North County." Then make sure you have your act together in ... We did a thing for where we are in North County, San Diego, and we just did a ... How many Bible-believing churches are in North County? Really Evangelical churches, and I don't care what denomination, what they adhere to. Just do they do the Bible? Then we had just a bank of people, volunteers, that just spent two days calling them saying, "How many services do you have and how much does your auditorium seat?" Then we just did the math. We did ... Took the population of North County. If everybody in North County wanted to go to church, we would be 446,000 seats short of being able to fill it.

Dean Sweetman:  Short. What a great way to see it!

Chris Brown:    "Guys, so listen. I don't want buildings, I don't want land. I don't want a bigger building. I don't want to look like a mega church. We're doing this for the 446,000. Now let's boil down. Let me remind you who they are. These are your friends, your neighbors, your aunts, your uncles. These are the people on the Little League team, the parents that you sit by," and our whole thing was about the 446,000. It wasn't about buildings. It wasn't about [crosstalk 00:11:58].

Dean Sweetman:  I love that. What a great exercise. Find out how many local churches, how many services, and find the deficit. Man, that will preach all day long.

Frank Barry:    You guys are planting another campus or just did plant another campus?

Chris Brown:    We just did, and we're doing another one. It's crazy.

Frank Barry:    Tell us where they're at.

Chris Brown:    In North County we've got this site here on the Vista campus. We've got Carlsbad, Fallbrook. We are out at San Marcus Escondido. We just planted Ramona, and now we're starting South 15 at Rancho Bernardo High School.

Dean Sweetman:  San Diego and Vancouver, Canada, are not cheap cities. I hear this. Somebody will be, "Well-"

Frank Barry:    Oh, we're cheap compared to them. I thought we were expensive until I went to [crosstalk 00:12:35].

Dean Sweetman:  Apostles will say, "Dean, you don't know how expensive it is here." It's like if you go in with a defeatist attitude thinking, "Well, my city's expensive, and you don't know how hard it is." There's 10 excuses why you shouldn't go bold, preach a great vision, present something great, but I think it starts with a revelation from the senior guy. You got to come in really believing this. How did you get started on this whole revelation of giving? Was there something that snapped in you?

Chris Brown:    It has to start with what's been done in your heart. Do not expect your people to be generous if you're not generous, and I don't care how many messages. I don't care what series. I don't care how gifted you are. If you are not leading a generous life, do not expect them to be generous. Then be the first to the wall. The first to the wall are always the bloodiest. Even when it came to us going, "Okay, our people have got into giving." Now we looked at going, "We got to do this above and beyond. We've got some great missions, but we wanted something else as a tool for people compassionate and national." For a couple years, I took on ... Each of my kids sponsored a compassion child. I went to five different countries to go, "Are they really who they say?"

Dean Sweetman:  Is this really [inaudible 00:13:40]. Yeah, those guys are [crosstalk 00:13:41].

Chris Brown:    Then I bring it back [inaudible 00:13:43] church. "I want to tell you what has so shaped my heart and my kids right now. I want to take you to a journey my family's going through. I'm not asking you to do something that I'm not doing."

Frank Barry:    Yeah, exactly.

Chris Brown:    It's like, "Guys, here's where we're at. When it comes to our giving, our building, all of that is just ..." You put it down and go, "It's got to start with you and what God's done in your heart."

Dean Sweetman:  Unbelievable.

Frank Barry:    That's so good.

Mark Clark:     Yeah, I agree. Ever since we had no money and debts to pay and whatever, we always tried to have this ... supporting kids that we can't afford, and blah, blah, blah. When your kids look at you and go, "We can't buy that. We can't buy this, because we support these kids," and whatever.

Dean Sweetman:  Right. These other kids.

Mark Clark:     It shows them that there's more important things in the universe than money and whatever. But the other thing is the city that you live in, it is a more expensive city. It might be than Louisiana.

Dean Sweetman:  Wherever.

Mark Clark:     But there's also the [crosstalk 00:14:28] Louisiana.

Dean Sweetman:  You just threw Louisiana under the bus, dude.

Frank Barry:    It's probably like he watches some alligator show in Canada.

Dean Sweetman:  He has Louisiana on the head.

Frank Barry:    That's where your from, isn't it?

Dean Sweetman:  They're my people, they're my people.

Frank Barry:    Have you ever been to Louisiana?

Dean Sweetman:  No.

Mark Clark:     No, I've been to Tennessee.

Dean Sweetman:  Oh, same thing.

Frank Barry:    It's all the same, all the same. Dude, once again let me just say, he's Canadian.

Dean Sweetman:  Oh, my gosh.

Frank Barry:    [crosstalk 00:14:48] apologize.

Mark Clark:     I'm the first one to ever point out the [inaudible 00:14:51] Louisiana and Tennessee may be similar.

Frank Barry:    Oh this show, is he the first one?

Mark Clark:     Holy smoke [crosstalk 00:14:56].

Frank Barry:    Is this show the first one?

Dean Sweetman:  Yes. First Canadian.

Frank Barry:    I don't think I've ever heard Tennessee and Louisiana [crosstalk 00:15:00].

Dean Sweetman:  Not even close. Not even close. They're not even close, mate!

Mark Clark:     They're all monolithic cultures.

Frank Barry:    Give me. Give me three names that you have heard compare Tennessee [crosstalk 00:15:08]. Three names.

Mark Clark:     Oh my gosh. I'm not saying they're the same. I'm saying it's all ... It's the South.

Dean Sweetman:  You know we have a lot of customers in Louisiana and Tennessee.

Mark Clark:     Hold on. Let's talk [crosstalk 00:15:16] later what the difference is in regard to pricing and all that. If you tell me they're astronomically different, Louisiana and Tennessee-

Frank Barry:    Astronomically different.

Mark Clark:     Then we don't have to talk about it. We could cut this whole part.

Dean Sweetman:  Back to your revelation.

Chris Brown:    [crosstalk 00:15:27] show. Regardless of what we find, we're cutting this part.

Dean Sweetman:  No way. No way. I love it.

Mark Clark:     Okay, so, listen, listen. He like it because it's talent.

Dean Sweetman:  I love it. It's real, man.

Mark Clark:     Australia is actually [crosstalk 00:15:41].

Dean Sweetman:  Alligators, crocodiles. They're all reptiles, man.

Mark Clark:     Listen. But you have people in your city that make that kind of money if they live there, so it's all ratioed out. If you live in Vancouver-

Dean Sweetman:  It costs a lot to live I'm just saying.

Mark Clark:     If it is Vancouver, yes, it's costing us a million dollars, a million point seven per acre for dirt, and then I got put something on it. But there's people there who have ... There's [crosstalk 00:16:07], all kinds of amazing people that are making that kind of money who can help contribute to it. What I'm coming back to defeatist point.

Dean Sweetman:  Exactly.

Mark Clark:     It doesn't matter what city you're in, their money's there.

Dean Sweetman:  Right. I love that.

Mark Clark:     The money's being spent in all kinds of ways. It's just you have to sit people down and give them a vision to say, "Funnel your money into something that's actually a kingdom and eternal-oriented versus just [crosstalk 00:16:31]."

Chris Brown:    That's the big point. I think especially when you're dealing with people that have some means and can be high-capacity givers, they're always looking for that ROI on stuff and what am I [inaudible 00:16:40] and what I'm doing. You got to get them to have an eternal portfolio. I always talk to them about, "Look. If you're a Christian and you know this, you're shrewd financially with your money. You're looking at where we're going to be at 55, where I'm going to be at 65, where I'm going to be at 85." I said, "You would be, I mean ridiculously ignorant if you did not have a 200-year and a 500-year portfolio if you're a Christian."

Dean Sweetman:  Phenomenal.

Chris Brown:    I always talk to guys all the time.

Frank Barry:    It's going beyond. It's crazy.

Chris Brown:    Financial planners and talk to people with means. I go, "You have a financial planner. They've never come to you and said, 'I think you guys are done. I think you guys are set.'" "What do I need?" "I don't think you need anything else." "What?" "Yeah. I mean I've looked up to next Thursday. I think you guys are going to make it." It's like, "What's happening next Thursday?" "Oh, I'm just saying that's what I planned you out to." You'd fire that person immediately. You're going to death and yet as a Christian you know you will never die, so why are you planning to death?

Male:       Wow. It's so good.

Male:       Eternal perspective on your money.

Chris Brown:    We challenge people to go, "Where is your financial acumen put to a 200-year plan and a 500-year plan, and where is your ROI in that?"

Dean Sweetman:  So much gold.

Frank Barry:    It's the next level. We should benefit. Hit on simplicity. That's one of the things, Chris, I know you're big on. Making things [crosstalk 00:17:49].

Mark Clark:     Because you're a simple man.

Chris Brown:    Full of complexity.

Frank Barry:    We're going to go simple here, complex here.

Chris Brown:    By the way, if you don't know Mark Clark, he wrote a book called The Problem of God which is absolutely one of the best modern apologetics book.

Dean Sweetman:  Are you changing the subject?

Mark Clark:     [crosstalk 00:18:00] book about the history of the South in the United States.

Frank Barry:    You know it's Tennessee and Louisiana.

Chris Brown:    And how they're basically one. He's got it much like [inaudible 00:18:10] like different campuses. He's got multiple campuses up south of Vancouver in a place where church doesn't work, God doesn't work. There's no such thing as [crosstalk 00:18:18].

Dean Sweetman:  They're heathens up there, man.

Chris Brown:    It is happening. If you haven't heard of Village Church, Mark Clark, and The Problem with God-

Frank Barry:    Village Church.com?

Chris Brown:    It is amazing what's happening.

Frank Barry:    This is Village Church.com, yes.

Chris Brown:    This is Village Church.com?

Mark Clark:     Yep, yep.

Frank Barry:    Village Church what this is?

Chris Brown:    Yeah.

Frank Barry:    That's pretty cool. I like that.

Chris Brown:    Not the Village Church. It's this is Village Church.com.

Dean Sweetman:  I like it. One point on simplicity. Keeping it simple. Talk to our pastors and leaders, keeping generosity simple. What would you say? Close it out.

Chris Brown:    Yeah. Don't overthink it. Don't over-spiritualize it. Treat it like you would do any other spiritual gift. Talk to people openly about it. If people sense you have an issue with it, they are going to have an issue with it.

Dean Sweetman:  Very nice.

Frank Barry:    I would. I would just keep it simple. If it's a gift of volunteering, if it's a gift of help, a gift of mercy, a gift of meeting the needs of others, a gift of leadership, we treat all the gifts the same except for meeting the needs of others. We pull that out as if it wasn't supposed to be in a list of spiritual gifts, and that's shame on us for doing that. Keep it simple. If you're going to reach someone's heart, you better be talking about their finances.

Dean Sweetman:  Unreal. Mark, final thoughts?

Mark Clark:     Yeah.

Dean Sweetman:  Well, simpler.

Mark Clark:     Or simpler. Well, I think the key thing is ... You have people who are gifted. That's what he's referring to. Literally people who are gifted in the Bible spiritual with making money. You have to use those people for the good of the kingdom. Then on the other hand, this is something that every single person has to participate in whether they're actually called to be the gifted people or just the regular joe in the church. They need to follow Jesus with their money, period. Because you show me what you worship not by the songs you sing, not by the podcasts you listen to, but how you spend your money. Show me your credit card receipt, I'll tell you what you value, what you prioritize in your life, period.

Dean Sweetman:  It's so true. Everything.

Mark Clark:     You can riff all day and [inaudible 00:20:05]. Talk is cheap as my wife ...

Dean Sweetman:  All wives say that. [inaudible 00:20:11], Mark. Honey, honey.

Mark Clark:     I can talk people into [crosstalk 00:20:13]. [inaudible 00:20:14]. Show me what you spend your money [inaudible 00:20:15]. That's what you actually ...

Dean Sweetman:  Phenomenal.

Mark Clark:     That's what you like. If you like kingdom, if you like church, missionaries, if you like the work of Jesus on the planet, then you have to parse out a big piece of your resources to actually fund that, because there's no free lunch. I tell people like ... I'm like, "What are you doing here? If you've come to our church for more than seven weeks," and I'm not talking about if you're not a Christian [crosstalk 00:20:40].

Dean Sweetman:  No problem, yeah.

Mark Clark:     "If you're a Christian and you're not giving, what do you think this is free? You're taking up a seat. It costs money to put the lights on. This microphone I'm wearing costs money. Do not be a non-contributing zero. Jesus called you here. Then be here or leave because you're just taking up space. You're actually weighing us down. You're making it harder for us to reach people because you are here costing us something and not paying for it." In no other-

Frank Barry:    I'd say that's in your faith right there.

Chris Brown:    It works. That works for him. I could never pull that off. Everyone would want to go. Peace, get out just one more [crosstalk 00:21:07]. I didn't know. I didn't mean it. Oh my gosh. I didn't mean it.

Dean Sweetman:  Come back, come back.

Chris Brown:    You guys actually listened to me. It works in Canada.

Mark Clark:     But in no other sphere of society do we act like we do in the church with people. I talk to all my business leader friends who are like, "Why would you ever let a staff member stay on that long? They should have been cut a year ago." It's like, "You just wasted money, time putting them on 12 different things."

Chris Brown:    Well they have such a good heart.

Mark Clark:     Yeah, they got a great heart.

Dean Sweetman:  Yeah, that's the challenge. That's a subject for a whole other show.

Mark Clark:     It's a whole other [crosstalk 00:21:35].

Chris Brown:    I challenge our people, "Can you start by putting God at least equal with your gym membership? You're paying 88 bucks a month."

Frank Barry:    That you don't even know you're [crosstalk 00:21:44].

Chris Brown:    For a gym you not even going to. It's not showing up.

Dean Sweetman:  Can you start there?

Chris Brown:    Can you at least get God where your gym membership [crosstalk 00:21:49]?

Mark Clark:     If the people in your church, the amount of people that go to your church, and the people gave that ...

Chris Brown:    We'd be good.

Mark Clark:     All the bills would be [crosstalk 00:21:56].

Chris Brown:    We'd be good.

Frank Barry:    Off the charts.

Chris Brown:    I was just saying that's a true story.

Dean Sweetman:  We're going to wrap that up. Chris Brown, hey, mate, you're the man. Mark Clark from Village Church in [crosstalk 00:22:04].

Male:       Awesome.

Dean Sweetman:  This was awesome.

Mark Clark:     Thank you, sir.

Dean Sweetman:  We'll see you next time. Tithe.ly TV, peace out, see you guys. Wow. That quite possibly is the most hilarious episode we've ever done. Frank Barry, I'm not sure, obviously we're post. That was last week at Sticky Teams and just being in the middle of all that was ... It was both incredible and insane at the same time.

Frank Barry:    Yeah, yeah, yeah. That was a fun episode. As you guys all know here on Facebook, if you're watching the recording of even this end right here, we recorded that at Sticky Teams. It was a conference out in San Diego that Chris Brown and the whole North Coast crew, North Coast training, Sticky Teams network. They put on a great show and Mark Clark ...

Dean Sweetman:  Actually he was a ring-in, last minute.

Frank Barry:    Yeah, he just jumped into the episode on us, but it ended up being brilliant, so such a good time.

Dean Sweetman:  I'm so glad he did. Both Chris and Mark, great leaders in the body of Christ building phenomenal churches, Southern California and up there in Vancouver, Canada, and it was a pleasure having them on the show, 100%.

Frank Barry:    One thing I love, just remembering back to the episode, is both of those guys were like ... They're just incredibly bold. They're incredibly courageous with how they talk about money and how they almost expect the church to give generously. They don't beat around the bush. They don't showboat it. They're just both very bold in terms of how they talk about financial giving.

Dean Sweetman:  The whole posture of how we would educate people on the offering moment is one of the components is boldness.

Frank Barry:    Totally.

Dean Sweetman:  Of course that comes out of personal conviction, personal revelation. You're able to get up there, go the bold, and take the offering.

Frank Barry:    Right, right. In our survey, we should reference back.

Dean Sweetman:  Yep.

Frank Barry:    People generally said they were confident in being bold. Chris is like ... Man, if you-

Dean Sweetman:  It's next level.

Frank Barry:    They were next level. I love Chris's point about if you could get everyone to give the equivalent of what their monthly family gym membership was, the church's finances would skyrocket. Anyways, I just was impressed with their boldness.

Dean Sweetman:  Absolutely. We've got next week, a really great show coming up.

Frank Barry:    Yep, that's right. We have another recorded episode. We were actually at Catalyst a few weeks back, and we got to spend some time with Jim Sheppard who is the CEO of Generis.

Dean Sweetman:  Wow, and he was a hoot.

Frank Barry:    Maybe not as crazy as [inaudible 00:24:53] episode.

Dean Sweetman:  Different kind of crazy.

Frank Barry:    But super fun. He's a great guy. We're going to come back to you guys next week, and we're going to talk about Giving Tuesday and the whole movement of Giving Tuesday and how churches can be part of Giving Tuesday, and develop some campaigns, and talk about fundraising. The whole crew at Generis is all about fundraising consulting for churches. They do incredible work over there.

Dean Sweetman:  Yeah. They're great friends of ours. I think you're going to love that episode with Jim. It was a lot of fun but some really poignant things. Giving Tuesday has really grown. Not so much within the body of Christ, certainly outside, but there's some great takeaways that ... He talked about how as the church, we can take advantage of Giving Tuesday, so I'm looking forward to that, mate.

Frank Barry:    Yeah, it's going to be fun. Man, that was a good episode. Jim's [inaudible 00:25:43] going to be great. For everybody out there that's listening to this content, if we could just ask you to share it as much as possible. We're doing our best to get great guest speakers, talk about great subjects, and just share as much value with you guys as we can, so we'd love it if you could give us a like on Facebook, share it on Instagram. Do your part in getting this content out to as many people as possible.

Dean Sweetman:  Help spread the generosity live. Hey, we love you guys, and we'll see you next time. God bless.

Frank Barry:    Thanks, guys.

diest. Even when it came to us going, "Okay, our people have got into giving." Now we looked at going, "We got to do this above and beyond. We've got some great missions, but we wanted something else as a tool for people compassionate and national." For a couple years, I took on ... Each of my kids sponsored a compassion child. I went to five different countries to go, "Are they really who they say?"

Dean Sweetman:  Is this really [inaudible 00:13:40]. Yeah, those guys are [crosstalk 00:13:41].

Chris Brown:    Then I bring it back [inaudible 00:13:43] church. "I want to tell you what has so shaped my heart and my kids right now. I want to take you to a journey my family's going through. I'm not asking you to do something that I'm not doing."

Frank Barry:    Yeah, exactly.

Chris Brown:    It's like, "Guys, here's where we're at. When it comes to our giving, our building, all of that is just ..." You put it down and go, "It's got to start with you and what God's done in your heart."

Dean Sweetman:  Unbelievable.

Frank Barry:    That's so good.

Mark Clark:     Yeah, I agree. Ever since we had no money and debts to pay and whatever, we always tried to have this ... supporting kids that we can't afford, and blah, blah, blah. When your kids look at you and go, "We can't buy that. We can't buy this, because we support these kids," and whatever.

Dean Sweetman:  Right. These other kids.

Mark Clark:     It shows them that there's more important things in the universe than money and whatever. But the other thing is the city that you live in, it is a more expensive city. It might be than Louisiana.

Dean Sweetman:  Wherever.

Mark Clark:     But there's also the [crosstalk 00:14:28] Louisiana.

Dean Sweetman:  You just threw Louisiana under the bus, dude.

Frank Barry:    It's probably like he watches some alligator show in Canada.

Dean Sweetman:  He has Louisiana on the head.

Frank Barry:    That's where your from, isn't it?

Dean Sweetman:  They're my people, they're my people.

Frank Barry:    Have you ever been to Louisiana?

Dean Sweetman:  No.

Mark Clark:     No, I've been to Tennessee.

Dean Sweetman:  Oh, same thing.

Frank Barry:    It's all the same, all the same. Dude, once again let me just say, he's Canadian.

Dean Sweetman:  Oh, my gosh.

Frank Barry:    [crosstalk 00:14:48] apologize.

Mark Clark:     I'm the first one to ever point out the [inaudible 00:14:51] Louisiana and Tennessee may be similar.

Frank Barry:    Oh this show, is he the first one?

Mark Clark:     Holy smoke [crosstalk 00:14:56].

Frank Barry:    Is this show the first one?

Dean Sweetman:  Yes. First Canadian.

Frank Barry:    I don't think I've ever heard Tennessee and Louisiana [crosstalk 00:15:00].

Dean Sweetman:  Not even close. Not even close. They're not even close, mate!

Mark Clark:     They're all monolithic cultures.

Frank Barry:    Give me. Give me three names that you have heard compare Tennessee [crosstalk 00:15:08]. Three names.

Mark Clark:     Oh my gosh. I'm not saying they're the same. I'm saying it's all ... It's the South.

Dean Sweetman:  You know we have a lot of customers in Louisiana and Tennessee.

Mark Clark:     Hold on. Let's talk [crosstalk 00:15:16] later what the difference is in regard to pricing and all that. If you tell me they're astronomically different, Louisiana and Tennessee-

Frank Barry:    Astronomically different.

Mark Clark:     Then we don't have to talk about it. We could cut this whole part.

Dean Sweetman:  Back to your revelation.

Chris Brown:    [crosstalk 00:15:27] show. Regardless of what we find, we're cutting this part.

Dean Sweetman:  No way. No way. I love it.

Mark Clark:     Okay, so, listen, listen. He like it because it's talent.

Dean Sweetman:  I love it. It's real, man.

Mark Clark:     Australia is actually [crosstalk 00:15:41].

Dean Sweetman:  Alligators, crocodiles. They're all reptiles, man.

Mark Clark:     Listen. But you have people in your city that make that kind of money if they live there, so it's all ratioed out. If you live in Vancouver-

Dean Sweetman:  It costs a lot to live I'm just saying.

Mark Clark:     If it is Vancouver, yes, it's costing us a million dollars, a million point seven per acre for dirt, and then I got put something on it. But there's people there who have ... There's [crosstalk 00:16:07], all kinds of amazing people that are making that kind of money who can help contribute to it. What I'm coming back to defeatist point.

Dean Sweetman:  Exactly.

Mark Clark:     It doesn't matter what city you're in, their money's there.

Dean Sweetman:  Right. I love that.

Mark Clark:     The money's being spent in all kinds of ways. It's just you have to sit people down and give them a vision to say, "Funnel your money into something that's actually a kingdom and eternal-oriented versus just [crosstalk 00:16:31]."

Chris Brown:    That's the big point. I think especially when you're dealing with people that have some means and can be high-capacity givers, they're always looking for that ROI on stuff and what am I [inaudible 00:16:40] and what I'm doing. You got to get them to have an eternal portfolio. I always talk to them about, "Look. If you're a Christian and you know this, you're shrewd financially with your money. You're looking at where we're going to be at 55, where I'm going to be at 65, where I'm going to be at 85." I said, "You would be, I mean ridiculously ignorant if you did not have a 200-year and a 500-year portfolio if you're a Christian."

Dean Sweetman:  Phenomenal.

Chris Brown:    I always talk to guys all the time.

Frank Barry:    It's going beyond. It's crazy.

Chris Brown:    Financial planners and talk to people with means. I go, "You have a financial planner. They've never come to you and said, 'I think you guys are done. I think you guys are set.'" "What do I need?" "I don't think you need anything else." "What?" "Yeah. I mean I've looked up to next Thursday. I think you guys are going to make it." It's like, "What's happening next Thursday?" "Oh, I'm just saying that's what I planned you out to." You'd fire that person immediately. You're going to death and yet as a Christian you know you will never die, so why are you planning to death?

Male:       Wow. It's so good.

Male:       Eternal perspective on your money.

Chris Brown:    We challenge people to go, "Where is your financial acumen put to a 200-year plan and a 500-year plan, and where is your ROI in that?"

Dean Sweetman:  So much gold.

Frank Barry:    It's the next level. We should benefit. Hit on simplicity. That's one of the things, Chris, I know you're big on. Making things [crosstalk 00:17:49].

Mark Clark:     Because you're a simple man.

Chris Brown:    Full of complexity.

Frank Barry:    We're going to go simple here, complex here.

Chris Brown:    By the way, if you don't know Mark Clark, he wrote a book called The Problem of God which is absolutely one of the best modern apologetics book.

Dean Sweetman:  Are you changing the subject?

Mark Clark:     [crosstalk 00:18:00] book about the history of the South in the United States.

Frank Barry:    You know it's Tennessee and Louisiana.

Chris Brown:    And how they're basically one. He's got it much like [inaudible 00:18:10] like different campuses. He's got multiple campuses up south of Vancouver in a place where church doesn't work, God doesn't work. There's no such thing as [crosstalk 00:18:18].

Dean Sweetman:  They're heathens up there, man.

Chris Brown:    It is happening. If you haven't heard of Village Church, Mark Clark, and The Problem with God-

Frank Barry:    Village Church.com?

Chris Brown:    It is amazing what's happening.

Frank Barry:    This is Village Church.com, yes.

Chris Brown:    This is Village Church.com?

Mark Clark:     Yep, yep.

Frank Barry:    Village Church what this is?

Chris Brown:    Yeah.

Frank Barry:    That's pretty cool. I like that.

Chris Brown:    Not the Village Church. It's this is Village Church.com.

Dean Sweetman:  I like it. One point on simplicity. Keeping it simple. Talk to our pastors and leaders, keeping generosity simple. What would you say? Close it out.

Chris Brown:    Yeah. Don't overthink it. Don't over-spiritualize it. Treat it like you would do any other spiritual gift. Talk to people openly about it. If people sense you have an issue with it, they are going to have an issue with it.

Dean Sweetman:  Very nice.

Frank Barry:    I would. I would just keep it simple. If it's a gift of volunteering, if it's a gift of help, a gift of mercy, a gift of meeting the needs of others, a gift of leadership, we treat all the gifts the same except for meeting the needs of others. We pull that out as if it wasn't supposed to be in a list of spiritual gifts, and that's shame on us for doing that. Keep it simple. If you're going to reach someone's heart, you better be talking about their finances.

Dean Sweetman:  Unreal. Mark, final thoughts?

Mark Clark:     Yeah.

Dean Sweetman:  Well, simpler.

Mark Clark:     Or simpler. Well, I think the key thing is ... You have people who are gifted. That's what he's referring to. Literally people who are gifted in the Bible spiritual with making money. You have to use those people for the good of the kingdom. Then on the other hand, this is something that every single person has to participate in whether they're actually called to be the gifted people or just the regular joe in the church. They need to follow Jesus with their money, period. Because you show me what you worship not by the songs you sing, not by the podcasts you listen to, but how you spend your money. Show me your credit card receipt, I'll tell you what you value, what you prioritize in your life, period.

Dean Sweetman:  It's so true. Everything.

Mark Clark:     You can riff all day and [inaudible 00:20:05]. Talk is cheap as my wife ...

Dean Sweetman:  All wives say that. [inaudible 00:20:11], Mark. Honey, honey.

Mark Clark:     I can talk people into [crosstalk 00:20:13]. [inaudible 00:20:14]. Show me what you spend your money [inaudible 00:20:15]. That's what you actually ...

Dean Sweetman:  Phenomenal.

Mark Clark:     That's what you like. If you like kingdom, if you like church, missionaries, if you like the work of Jesus on the planet, then you have to parse out a big piece of your resources to actually fund that, because there's no free lunch. I tell people like ... I'm like, "What are you doing here? If you've come to our church for more than seven weeks," and I'm not talking about if you're not a Christian [crosstalk 00:20:40].

Dean Sweetman:  No problem, yeah.

Mark Clark:     "If you're a Christian and you're not giving, what do you think this is free? You're taking up a seat. It costs money to put the lights on. This microphone I'm wearing costs money. Do not be a non-contributing zero. Jesus called you here. Then be here or leave because you're just taking up space. You're actually weighing us down. You're making it harder for us to reach people because you are here costing us something and not paying for it." In no other-

Frank Barry:    I'd say that's in your faith right there.

Chris Brown:    It works. That works for him. I could never pull that off. Everyone would want to go. Peace, get out just one more [crosstalk 00:21:07]. I didn't know. I didn't mean it. Oh my gosh. I didn't mean it.

Dean Sweetman:  Come back, come back.

Chris Brown:    You guys actually listened to me. It works in Canada.

Mark Clark:     But in no other sphere of society do we act like we do in the church with people. I talk to all my business leader friends who are like, "Why would you ever let a staff member stay on that long? They should have been cut a year ago." It's like, "You just wasted money, time putting them on 12 different things."

Chris Brown:    Well they have such a good heart.

Mark Clark:     Yeah, they got a great heart.

Dean Sweetman:  Yeah, that's the challenge. That's a subject for a whole other show.

Mark Clark:     It's a whole other [crosstalk 00:21:35].

Chris Brown:    I challenge our people, "Can you start by putting God at least equal with your gym membership? You're paying 88 bucks a month."

Frank Barry:    That you don't even know you're [crosstalk 00:21:44].

Chris Brown:    For a gym you not even going to. It's not showing up.

Dean Sweetman:  Can you start there?

Chris Brown:    Can you at least get God where your gym membership [crosstalk 00:21:49]?

Mark Clark:     If the people in your church, the amount of people that go to your church, and the people gave that ...

Chris Brown:    We'd be good.

Mark Clark:     All the bills would be [crosstalk 00:21:56].

Chris Brown:    We'd be good.

Frank Barry:    Off the charts.

Chris Brown:    I was just saying that's a true story.

Dean Sweetman:  We're going to wrap that up. Chris Brown, hey, mate, you're the man. Mark Clark from Village Church in [crosstalk 00:22:04].

Male:       Awesome.

Dean Sweetman:  This was awesome.

Mark Clark:     Thank you, sir.

Dean Sweetman:  We'll see you next time. Tithe.ly TV, peace out, see you guys. Wow. That quite possibly is the most hilarious episode we've ever done. Frank Barry, I'm not sure, obviously we're post. That was last week at Sticky Teams and just being in the middle of all that was ... It was both incredible and insane at the same time.

Frank Barry:    Yeah, yeah, yeah. That was a fun episode. As you guys all know here on Facebook, if you're watching the recording of even this end right here, we recorded that at Sticky Teams. It was a conference out in San Diego that Chris Brown and the whole North Coast crew, North Coast training, Sticky Teams network. They put on a great show and Mark Clark ...

Dean Sweetman:  Actually he was a ring-in, last minute.

Frank Barry:    Yeah, he just jumped into the episode on us, but it ended up being brilliant, so such a good time.

Dean Sweetman:  I'm so glad he did. Both Chris and Mark, great leaders in the body of Christ building phenomenal churches, Southern California and up there in Vancouver, Canada, and it was a pleasure having them on the show, 100%.

Frank Barry:    One thing I love, just remembering back to the episode, is both of those guys were like ... They're just incredibly bold. They're incredibly courageous with how they talk about money and how they almost expect the church to give generously. They don't beat around the bush. They don't showboat it. They're just both very bold in terms of how they talk about financial giving.

Dean Sweetman:  The whole posture of how we would educate people on the offering moment is one of the components is boldness.

Frank Barry:    Totally.

Dean Sweetman:  Of course that comes out of personal conviction, personal revelation. You're able to get up there, go the bold, and take the offering.

Frank Barry:    Right, right. In our survey, we should reference back.

Dean Sweetman:  Yep.

Frank Barry:    People generally said they were confident in being bold. Chris is like ... Man, if you-

Dean Sweetman:  It's next level.

Frank Barry:    They were next level. I love Chris's point about if you could get everyone to give the equivalent of what their monthly family gym membership was, the church's finances would skyrocket. Anyways, I just was impressed with their boldness.

Dean Sweetman:  Absolutely. We've got next week, a really great show coming up.

Frank Barry:    Yep, that's right. We have another recorded episode. We were actually at Catalyst a few weeks back, and we got to spend some time with Jim Sheppard who is the CEO of Generis.

Dean Sweetman:  Wow, and he was a hoot.

Frank Barry:    Maybe not as crazy as [inaudible 00:24:53] episode.

Dean Sweetman:  Different kind of crazy.

Frank Barry:    But super fun. He's a great guy. We're going to come back to you guys next week, and we're going to talk about Giving Tuesday and the whole movement of Giving Tuesday and how churches can be part of Giving Tuesday, and develop some campaigns, and talk about fundraising. The whole crew at Generis is all about fundraising consulting for churches. They do incredible work over there.

Dean Sweetman:  Yeah. They're great friends of ours. I think you're going to love that episode with Jim. It was a lot of fun but some really poignant things. Giving Tuesday has really grown. Not so much within the body of Christ, certainly outside, but there's some great takeaways that ... He talked about how as the church, we can take advantage of Giving Tuesday, so I'm looking forward to that, mate.

Frank Barry:    Yeah, it's going to be fun. Man, that was a good episode. Jim's [inaudible 00:25:43] going to be great. For everybody out there that's listening to this content, if we could just ask you to share it as much as possible. We're doing our best to get great guest speakers, talk about great subjects, and just share as much value with you guys as we can, so we'd love it if you could give us a like on Facebook, share it on Instagram. Do your part in getting this content out to as many people as possible.

Dean Sweetman:  Help spread the generosity live. Hey, we love you guys, and we'll see you next time. God bless.

Frank Barry:    Thanks, guys.

Dissecting A $3 Million Fundraising Campaign

with Dean Sweetman and Frank Barry
This week on Tithe.ly TV, Dean and Frank are joined by Chuck Leslie, Pastor of Stewardship at the Rock Church in San Diego, CA. In this episode, Pastor Leslie will break down Rock Church’s $3 million All In fundraising campaign.